A Buddhist interpretation on Heaven and Hell might be worth considering. The Buddhist view is more attuned to a psychological perspective. Hell" results from addiction to anger, desire, hatred. In other words, "hell" comes from negative states of mind which result in actions that cause pain to others which inevitably, at deeper levels of the Mind, cause pain to oneself. Hell is the "hungry ghost" realm as well as existences in various animal realms. "Hell" implies being caught in states of mind in which there is an inability to extricate oneself. Dr Gabor Mate's book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" discussed addictive states in the real world---people having insatiable hunger and thirst, seeking satisfaction that was unattainable by the means they believed would bring some degree of happiness. Although "Hell" is temporary one's suffering there can be extensive, with long terms of sustained suffering;.......whereas "Heaven" is attained by cultivating character traits that are beneficent to oneself and others. Many levels of sense pleasure and happiness can be experienced in "heavenly worlds" and these states of mind are attainable through spiritual discipline but they are not permanent.
Thanks for this, Hugh. The ancient Greeks were a bunch of vulgarians compared to the Buddhists. Nothing better epitomizes the cycle of samsara than the Olympians themselves -- a soap opera of a family full of bickering, desire, scheming, lust, and vengeance. One finds scant nirvana in their world, except I suppose in Elysium. But they're a colorful bunch, and that's what's always drawn me to them
This was such an interesting dialogue, and I am churchless Christian who is lately feeling perplexed and dubious of the triune God. It's difficult not to wonder how, if there is a god or gods, could they allow what is currently happening in our tortured world. Then I remember that our world, at least the world with humans, has always been replete with horrors perpetrated by homo sapiens. I've been giving my God the stink-eye a lot lately for what He seems to be ignoring, so I guess I'll vote for Tartarus.
Great convo, never seen the optimism v. pessimism debate framed through this lens!
A refrain I often share with my Tartarus-minded friends is to really picture the dystopia they fear most. Usually it looks like:
-pollution everywhere
-scarce energy
-no equality before the law across sex, race, or orientation
-rampant authoritarianism
-little access to education or opportunity
Sounds a lot like Tartarus to me! Too easy to forget: this wasn’t some imagined future, it was the lived reality of most of the world before 1800. All things considered, I think it’s far more likely these conditions belong to our past than to our future!
Fair point—life in 1800 would make today look like paradise in countless ways. But I've always seen Tartarus less about squalor than about who holds the keys to the dungeon. And that old-school prison industrial complex is still booming...
Totally-- power and wealth concentration today exist in unfathomable ways, and the potential (let alone reality) for misuse / abuse is terrifying.
That said re: prison industrial complex, here in the United States, we may actually be at the beginning of a mass-decarceration period, with current trends for a reduction in prison population exceeding the most optimistic goals at the peak of this problem.
"Mass incarceration has been so persistent and pervasive that reform groups dedicated to reducing the prison population by half have often been derided as made up of fantasists. But the next decade could see this goal met and exceeded: After peaking at just more than 1.6 million Americans in 2009, the prison population was just more than 1.2 million at the end of 2023 (the most recent year for which data are available), and is on track to fall to about 600,000—a decline of roughly 60 percent."
Not denying that many aspects of America's incarceration system are unfair, unjust, and wrong-- but progress in any category often goes against all the tenets of "newsworthiness" -- it happens slowly and unremarkably. So only focusing on everything going wrong in the world (as the media is so incentivized to do) often presents a skewed picture of the state of many complex problems
Interesting. I haven't read the article but will do. Even with the decline, I'm pretty sure the US still incarcerates more people per capita than any democracy (and more than many authoritarian states). And of course you also have the opening of "Alligator Alcatraz" which has strong dungeon vibes and is marketed with jokes about alligators eating escapees. It's a kind of Tartarus as PR spectacle
Fascinating exchange! Speaking of infernal matters, I've been reading Dante for quite a while and it surprises new readers to realize the Comedy is not really a poem about the afterlife--it's about the corruption and excellence found in the real world! Hell is basically a picture of Dante's 13th century Florence. And the Purgatorio is a kind of Elysian vision of a humane politics and statesmanship.
No doubt, and that's why in the Inferno Dante flanked Satan with Brutus and Cassius in the final circle of hell. Treachery was the ultimate sin to Dante, and it's no stretch to consider treachery the epitome of corruption
You are so right!!! Dante was critiquing our current world (using the afterlife as a way of framing what was good/bad etc). Such a valuable add to this discussion.
Elle, I know that when it comes to religion you are an agnostic. So was C.S. Lewis - and then he wrote "Mere Christianity". I agree that Global Politics is an intransigent issue but I suggest that Jesus offers a way out (for believers). Love your neighbor as yourself.
That applies to the family that lives next door, immigrants, your political foe, your president, LGBTQ folks, etc. No Exception. The cup is not half empty or half full. I'm a Christian and "my cup runneth over"! Platitudes - yes, but to me, truth.
Interesting back and forth. Although morality was focused on, I believe a better focus is on our divine creator and grace. I believe God is in control, and humans are clearly not. Without Him, I believe we are nothing, so our focus and hope should remain on Jesus and what He has already done for us. We simply cannot overcome death or become righteous on our own.
I think that's a beautiful perspective. Mine is that, whether or not there is a God in control, human beings can do something to improve the world for fellow human beings. And it is our duty to do so!
A Buddhist interpretation on Heaven and Hell might be worth considering. The Buddhist view is more attuned to a psychological perspective. Hell" results from addiction to anger, desire, hatred. In other words, "hell" comes from negative states of mind which result in actions that cause pain to others which inevitably, at deeper levels of the Mind, cause pain to oneself. Hell is the "hungry ghost" realm as well as existences in various animal realms. "Hell" implies being caught in states of mind in which there is an inability to extricate oneself. Dr Gabor Mate's book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" discussed addictive states in the real world---people having insatiable hunger and thirst, seeking satisfaction that was unattainable by the means they believed would bring some degree of happiness. Although "Hell" is temporary one's suffering there can be extensive, with long terms of sustained suffering;.......whereas "Heaven" is attained by cultivating character traits that are beneficent to oneself and others. Many levels of sense pleasure and happiness can be experienced in "heavenly worlds" and these states of mind are attainable through spiritual discipline but they are not permanent.
Thanks for this, Hugh. The ancient Greeks were a bunch of vulgarians compared to the Buddhists. Nothing better epitomizes the cycle of samsara than the Olympians themselves -- a soap opera of a family full of bickering, desire, scheming, lust, and vengeance. One finds scant nirvana in their world, except I suppose in Elysium. But they're a colorful bunch, and that's what's always drawn me to them
This was such an interesting dialogue, and I am churchless Christian who is lately feeling perplexed and dubious of the triune God. It's difficult not to wonder how, if there is a god or gods, could they allow what is currently happening in our tortured world. Then I remember that our world, at least the world with humans, has always been replete with horrors perpetrated by homo sapiens. I've been giving my God the stink-eye a lot lately for what He seems to be ignoring, so I guess I'll vote for Tartarus.
Well said, Grimalkin. You and Job would have a lot to talk about...
Ha! Love this reply.
Regardless of whether there is a God, I find a lot of strength in knowing that all we can do is try to create more good!
Great convo, never seen the optimism v. pessimism debate framed through this lens!
A refrain I often share with my Tartarus-minded friends is to really picture the dystopia they fear most. Usually it looks like:
-pollution everywhere
-scarce energy
-no equality before the law across sex, race, or orientation
-rampant authoritarianism
-little access to education or opportunity
Sounds a lot like Tartarus to me! Too easy to forget: this wasn’t some imagined future, it was the lived reality of most of the world before 1800. All things considered, I think it’s far more likely these conditions belong to our past than to our future!
Fair point—life in 1800 would make today look like paradise in countless ways. But I've always seen Tartarus less about squalor than about who holds the keys to the dungeon. And that old-school prison industrial complex is still booming...
Totally-- power and wealth concentration today exist in unfathomable ways, and the potential (let alone reality) for misuse / abuse is terrifying.
That said re: prison industrial complex, here in the United States, we may actually be at the beginning of a mass-decarceration period, with current trends for a reduction in prison population exceeding the most optimistic goals at the peak of this problem.
"Mass incarceration has been so persistent and pervasive that reform groups dedicated to reducing the prison population by half have often been derided as made up of fantasists. But the next decade could see this goal met and exceeded: After peaking at just more than 1.6 million Americans in 2009, the prison population was just more than 1.2 million at the end of 2023 (the most recent year for which data are available), and is on track to fall to about 600,000—a decline of roughly 60 percent."
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/06/prisoner-populations-are-plummeting/683310/
Not denying that many aspects of America's incarceration system are unfair, unjust, and wrong-- but progress in any category often goes against all the tenets of "newsworthiness" -- it happens slowly and unremarkably. So only focusing on everything going wrong in the world (as the media is so incentivized to do) often presents a skewed picture of the state of many complex problems
Interesting. I haven't read the article but will do. Even with the decline, I'm pretty sure the US still incarcerates more people per capita than any democracy (and more than many authoritarian states). And of course you also have the opening of "Alligator Alcatraz" which has strong dungeon vibes and is marketed with jokes about alligators eating escapees. It's a kind of Tartarus as PR spectacle
Bad things are happening, but we're also making the good things much more prevalent!!! And pushing for them with all we have!
100% !!
Fascinating exchange! Speaking of infernal matters, I've been reading Dante for quite a while and it surprises new readers to realize the Comedy is not really a poem about the afterlife--it's about the corruption and excellence found in the real world! Hell is basically a picture of Dante's 13th century Florence. And the Purgatorio is a kind of Elysian vision of a humane politics and statesmanship.
No doubt, and that's why in the Inferno Dante flanked Satan with Brutus and Cassius in the final circle of hell. Treachery was the ultimate sin to Dante, and it's no stretch to consider treachery the epitome of corruption
You are so right!!! Dante was critiquing our current world (using the afterlife as a way of framing what was good/bad etc). Such a valuable add to this discussion.
Elle, I know that when it comes to religion you are an agnostic. So was C.S. Lewis - and then he wrote "Mere Christianity". I agree that Global Politics is an intransigent issue but I suggest that Jesus offers a way out (for believers). Love your neighbor as yourself.
That applies to the family that lives next door, immigrants, your political foe, your president, LGBTQ folks, etc. No Exception. The cup is not half empty or half full. I'm a Christian and "my cup runneth over"! Platitudes - yes, but to me, truth.
Humanism also believes "love your neighbor as yourself," and this also applies to everyone!
Interesting back and forth. Although morality was focused on, I believe a better focus is on our divine creator and grace. I believe God is in control, and humans are clearly not. Without Him, I believe we are nothing, so our focus and hope should remain on Jesus and what He has already done for us. We simply cannot overcome death or become righteous on our own.
I think that's a beautiful perspective. Mine is that, whether or not there is a God in control, human beings can do something to improve the world for fellow human beings. And it is our duty to do so!